Some guy is going on about the fact that usually bonds have gone up when stocks have gone down so that there is a "bonds help you out when things go bad" effect. I'm not sure I get what he means.
Some guy is going on about the fact that usually bonds have gone up when stocks have gone down so that there is a "bonds help you out when things go bad" effect. I'm not sure I get what he means.
This refers to a historical investment pattern known as the "negative correlation" between stocks and bonds.
When the stock market experiences significant downturns (like during recessions or market crashes), government bonds have often increased in value. Why?
This negative correlation is why many financial advisors recommend a mixed portfolio of stocks and bonds. It's worth noting that this relationship isn't guaranteed.
Would you like me to elaborate?
Maybe just explain bond market to me like I'm very slow.
I'll explain how bonds work in simple terms.
A bond is basically an IOU. When you buy a bond, you're lending money to someone (usually a government or company) who promises to pay you back with interest.
Here's the tricky part that confuses many people:
Imagine you buy a $1,000 bond paying 3% interest. Later, new bonds start paying 5%.
This is why bonds have traditionally been seen as a "safety net" in a portfolio - when stocks have bad years, bonds often have good years, which helps balance things out. Does that make more sense now?
So you should think of a bond as a sort of money making machine that produces revenue at a fixed rate. If that rate is high, it's good. But if there are machines out there that run at a higher rate then I'm going to have to sell this one at a discount.
Yes, that's an excellent way to think about it! Your analogy of a "money making machine" is spot-on. Let me expand on your analogy:
This is exactly why bond prices move inversely to interest rates. And it's also why bonds can help during stock market downturns - when the economy slows, central banks often lower interest rates to stimulate growth, which makes existing bonds more valuable (like your $30 machine when only $20 machines are being sold new).
is the interest i'm paid simple - that is, it's the same year in and year out until maturity?
For most bonds, the interest payments actually stay the same dollar amount throughout the life of the bond. This is called a "fixed-rate" bond, which is the most common type. Here's how it typically works: When you buy a bond with a "face value" of $1,000 and a "coupon rate" of 5%, you'll receive $50 per year in interest payments. These payments are usually made semi-annually, so you'd get $25 every six months. The dollar amount ($50 per year) stays constant until the bond matures. When the bond matures, you get your original $1,000 back.
So one element here is that most bonds are fixed rate instruments as far as the investor is concerned. If I invest in bonds I might be doing one of two things. I might just want to flow of interest payments as a dependable cash flow. But maybe I do it because I think interest rates are going to fall and so I'll be able to sell the bond at higher than face value to someone else.
You've got it exactly right. There are indeed two main ways investors use bonds, Income Strategy and Capital Appreciation Strategy. The second strategy is essentially speculating on interest rate movements.
Is it hard to price bonds then? I mean I have to take into account the flow of payments that is guaranteed and how much over or under the face value it makes sense to pay/charge based on interest rate expectations?
Pricing bonds does involve some calculation, but it follows a standard formula. The price of a bond is the present value of all its future cash flows: periodic interest payments; return of principal at maturity. The key factor in this calculation is the "discount rate" - which is essentially the current market interest rate for similar bonds.
Let's use a simple example, a 3-year bond with a face value of $1,000 and 5% coupon rate (pays $50 per year). Suppose current market interest rate for similar bonds is 4%.
Since your bond pays more than the current rate (5% vs 4%), it would sell at a premium above $1,000.
If market rates were 6%, your 5% bond would sell at a discount below $1,000.
Here's an article from today's NYT that suggests President Trump faces a situation not unlike what happened to Liz Truss in Britain a few years back. Let's talk about the article.
From the article, we can see:
What this means in our earlier terms: The "money-making machines" (bonds) that the US government is selling now need to offer higher returns (yields) to attract buyers, suggesting investors see them as riskier than before.
"But now bond yields are rising (meaning bond prices are falling)" This refers to existing bonds, right? Ones that were purchased when yields were lower. If I had a bond from back when yield was even higher its price would not go down, would it?
You've hit on an important distinction! When the article says "bond yields are rising (meaning bond prices are falling)" it's referring to bonds that are already trading in the secondary market. Let me clarify:
So yes, if you had a bond from a time when yields were even higher than today's rising rates (say, 6%), its price would not go down - it would actually go up, since it's paying more interest than newly issued bonds.
But would the price actually go up? Presumably the 6% bond's price had taken account of the previous day's 3% yield. So when today the yield goes up to 5% does it affect yesterday's price for the 6% bond?
Excellent question that gets to the heart of day-to-day bond pricing! Yes, the price of your 6% bond would indeed change with daily market movements, but less dramatically than you might think. Let me explain:
So in this scenario:
The key insight is that bond prices move continuously with market rates, and the price is always relative to current rates, not to historical rates. The price yesterday already accounted for the 3% market rate, and today's price will account for the new 5% market rate. This is why bond investors closely watch interest rate movements - even if you have a higher-yielding bond, rising rates can still reduce its market value (though less severely than for lower-yielding bonds).
The yield on bonds is primarily determined by market forces—not by any single entity "setting" it. Here's how it works:
In the article you shared, Treasury yields were rising because investors were selling US government bonds, possibly due to concerns about inflation from tariffs or increased government borrowing needs. As investors sold these bonds, their prices dropped, which automatically increased their yields.
The Federal Reserve can influence yields indirectly by setting short-term interest rates and through bond-buying programs, but even the Fed cannot directly control long-term Treasury yields—they're ultimately determined by global market participants voting with their money.
So yield is not same as the stream of interest payments?
You're absolutely right—yield is not the same as the stream of interest payments. Let me clarify:
For example:
So this also explains why bonds with different coupons can be being traded at the same time?
This a key insight about the bond market. Multiple bonds with different coupon rates can trade simultaneously because their prices adjust to align their yields with current market conditions. Here's how it works:
This is why the bond market can have hundreds of different securities with varying coupon rates all trading at once. Their prices adjust to equalize yields based on:
It's also why you'll often see bonds referred to by both their coupon rate and their yield-to-maturity. The first tells you the fixed payment amount, while the second tells you the actual return based on current market price.
This flexible pricing mechanism is what makes the secondary bond market so liquid and efficient.
So the issuer is incentivized to set coupon correctly for today's market because that's the only way anyone buys it at face value?
Right! The issuer (government or corporation) is strongly motivated to set the coupon rate very close to current market yields for several important reasons:
When major issuers like the U.S. Treasury sell new bonds, they typically use auctions where market participants bid on the bonds, which helps determine the appropriate yield. The Treasury then sets coupons on new issues to match market conditions as closely as possible.
For corporate bonds, investment banks typically advise issuers on the appropriate coupon rate based on current market conditions and the company's credit rating.